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	<title>Comments for Marco's accessibility blog</title>
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	<link>http://www.marcozehe.de</link>
	<description>Musings, tips and tricks about the accessible software world</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 00:45:05 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on If you use the WAI-ARIA role &#8220;application&#8221;, please do so wisely! by James Teh</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/02/06/if-you-use-the-wai-aria-role-application-please-do-so-wisely/comment-page-1/#comment-282781</link>
		<dc:creator>James Teh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 08 Feb 2012 00:45:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=319#comment-282781</guid>
		<description>Marco wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Where did this paradigm that, when role “application” is being used, browse mode can no longer be enabled, come from? Could it not be implemented in a less strict fashion?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
There are both practical and principle reasons to strictly treat them differently. The practical reasons include the following. (I&#039;m using NVDA terminology here, but the same is true for other Windows screen readers.)
In focus mode, certain keys such as escape and alt+upArrow are still captured to switch back to focus mode (the latter is conditional).
Also, if auto focus mode is enabled, the screen reader would switch between focus and browse modes depending on the focused element, which should not happen inside an application.
The screen reader shouldn&#039;t have to do browse mode rendering at all for applications, which improves performance.
If the body is marked as an application, NVDA at least doesn&#039;t even know it&#039;s a web document.

In terms of principle, if an author has marked a region as an application, it should be treated as such. Otherwise, they don&#039;t get the full power of &quot;being an application&quot;. (As always, power incurs responsibility.)

Marco continued:
&lt;blockquote&gt;But what’s the guideline? How can we help web developers make that decision?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
I agree this is tricky. Your revised advice is probably as good as we can get: only use it if you want a user to navigate this region in a desktop-like fashion (as opposed to document-like fashion).

Marco&#039;s revised article says:
&lt;blockquote&gt;▪dialog and alertdialog. These cause screen readers to go into a sort of application mode implicitly once focus moves to a control inside them.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
For NVDA at least, this is not just &quot;a sort of application mode&quot;. It really is the same thing. (For the technically curious, a better way to think of this is that it *doesn&#039;t* use browse mode. Only documents use browse mode; documents are special, not applications. There is actually no &quot;application&quot; mode in NVDA. I believe JAWS does have a separate app mode though.)

Marco wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;The problem here, I think, is that they change the focus visually only.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Yup, I had to do some serious Greasemonkey magic on Twitter for the same reason. Basically, I detect the visual focus and make it real focus. It is a very annoying habbit in quite a few mainstream web sites.

Steve Faulkner wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Inclusion of role=”application” as a landmark is a point of confusion, as is the differing affects it has across platforms.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
The key then is to understand when and why to use it, not what effect it will have on a given platform.

Steve continued:
&lt;blockquote&gt;This may be a dumb question, but why can’t screen readers just set the appropriate interaction mode based on widget roles?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Aside from the answers already given, another reason is that sometimes, an application globally overrides the arrow or alphanumeric keys; e.g. j and k to move to previous/next item or g to go somewhere. In this case, if you&#039;re focused on a link (which would normally trigger browse mode) and there&#039;s no way for the author to specify this is an application, those shortcut keys would be unusable. Btw, to answer a later question, focus isn&#039;t an indicator for the same reason: focus on a link suggests browse mode.

Marco wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Mac OS X and iOS use a completely different user interaction paradigm. ... if you need to input something and focus an element, you just start typing. The only exception is if quick navigation is enabled by pressing left and right arrow keys simultaneously. This causes all keyboard input to be captured even when the focus is in a text field or the like.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
While many claim there are only advantages to this approach and that it frees you from the mode switching problems of the Windows world, it actually doesn&#039;t. Quick nav mode is just that: a different mode. At least on iOS, quick nav mode is enabled by default a lot of the time and it switches automatically if you activate an editable text field (and then switches off when you navigate out). This means that users still have to be educated about modes. This leads me to ask: why do people complain about these &quot;modes&quot; in Windows screen readers while the same complaint is not made about iOS? Why is it so unacceptable for screen reader users to just be a little educated about them? In NVDA, for example, you can lock focus mode with NVDA+space, after which it will not switch to browse mode again until the user does it manually or a different page loads. This is no more complex than quick nav mode on iOS.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marco wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Where did this paradigm that, when role “application” is being used, browse mode can no longer be enabled, come from? Could it not be implemented in a less strict fashion?</p></blockquote>
<p>There are both practical and principle reasons to strictly treat them differently. The practical reasons include the following. (I&#8217;m using NVDA terminology here, but the same is true for other Windows screen readers.)<br />
In focus mode, certain keys such as escape and alt+upArrow are still captured to switch back to focus mode (the latter is conditional).<br />
Also, if auto focus mode is enabled, the screen reader would switch between focus and browse modes depending on the focused element, which should not happen inside an application.<br />
The screen reader shouldn&#8217;t have to do browse mode rendering at all for applications, which improves performance.<br />
If the body is marked as an application, NVDA at least doesn&#8217;t even know it&#8217;s a web document.</p>
<p>In terms of principle, if an author has marked a region as an application, it should be treated as such. Otherwise, they don&#8217;t get the full power of &#8220;being an application&#8221;. (As always, power incurs responsibility.)</p>
<p>Marco continued:</p>
<blockquote><p>But what’s the guideline? How can we help web developers make that decision?</p></blockquote>
<p>I agree this is tricky. Your revised advice is probably as good as we can get: only use it if you want a user to navigate this region in a desktop-like fashion (as opposed to document-like fashion).</p>
<p>Marco&#8217;s revised article says:</p>
<blockquote><p>▪dialog and alertdialog. These cause screen readers to go into a sort of application mode implicitly once focus moves to a control inside them.</p></blockquote>
<p>For NVDA at least, this is not just &#8220;a sort of application mode&#8221;. It really is the same thing. (For the technically curious, a better way to think of this is that it *doesn&#8217;t* use browse mode. Only documents use browse mode; documents are special, not applications. There is actually no &#8220;application&#8221; mode in NVDA. I believe JAWS does have a separate app mode though.)</p>
<p>Marco wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>The problem here, I think, is that they change the focus visually only.</p></blockquote>
<p>Yup, I had to do some serious Greasemonkey magic on Twitter for the same reason. Basically, I detect the visual focus and make it real focus. It is a very annoying habbit in quite a few mainstream web sites.</p>
<p>Steve Faulkner wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Inclusion of role=”application” as a landmark is a point of confusion, as is the differing affects it has across platforms.</p></blockquote>
<p>The key then is to understand when and why to use it, not what effect it will have on a given platform.</p>
<p>Steve continued:</p>
<blockquote><p>This may be a dumb question, but why can’t screen readers just set the appropriate interaction mode based on widget roles?</p></blockquote>
<p>Aside from the answers already given, another reason is that sometimes, an application globally overrides the arrow or alphanumeric keys; e.g. j and k to move to previous/next item or g to go somewhere. In this case, if you&#8217;re focused on a link (which would normally trigger browse mode) and there&#8217;s no way for the author to specify this is an application, those shortcut keys would be unusable. Btw, to answer a later question, focus isn&#8217;t an indicator for the same reason: focus on a link suggests browse mode.</p>
<p>Marco wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Mac OS X and iOS use a completely different user interaction paradigm. &#8230; if you need to input something and focus an element, you just start typing. The only exception is if quick navigation is enabled by pressing left and right arrow keys simultaneously. This causes all keyboard input to be captured even when the focus is in a text field or the like.</p></blockquote>
<p>While many claim there are only advantages to this approach and that it frees you from the mode switching problems of the Windows world, it actually doesn&#8217;t. Quick nav mode is just that: a different mode. At least on iOS, quick nav mode is enabled by default a lot of the time and it switches automatically if you activate an editable text field (and then switches off when you navigate out). This means that users still have to be educated about modes. This leads me to ask: why do people complain about these &#8220;modes&#8221; in Windows screen readers while the same complaint is not made about iOS? Why is it so unacceptable for screen reader users to just be a little educated about them? In NVDA, for example, you can lock focus mode with NVDA+space, after which it will not switch to browse mode again until the user does it manually or a different page loads. This is no more complex than quick nav mode on iOS.</p>
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		<title>Comment on If you use the WAI-ARIA role &#8220;application&#8221;, please do so wisely! by Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/02/06/if-you-use-the-wai-aria-role-application-please-do-so-wisely/comment-page-1/#comment-282731</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 20:05:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=319#comment-282731</guid>
		<description>@ Marco. I was referring to bug xxxxxx that to my memory pertains to the WAI-ARIA role. I received the bug progress via e-mails in Thunderbird&#039;s Inbox and wondered if and how that pertained to this article.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Marco. I was referring to bug xxxxxx that to my memory pertains to the WAI-ARIA role. I received the bug progress via e-mails in Thunderbird&#8217;s Inbox and wondered if and how that pertained to this article.</p>
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		<title>Comment on If you use the WAI-ARIA role &#8220;application&#8221;, please do so wisely! by David Farough</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/02/06/if-you-use-the-wai-aria-role-application-please-do-so-wisely/comment-page-1/#comment-282691</link>
		<dc:creator>David Farough</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 17:26:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=319#comment-282691</guid>
		<description>I have found no way of terminating application mode using Jaws apart from moving focus away from the content.  the Jaws key +z is supposed to toggle from Virtual cursor mode to auto, but the Help text provided for this command explicitly indicates that this toggling functionality does not work if the application role is in effect.  Turning forms mode off with escape or the numberpad plus key has no effect either.

This is a great article and I will recommend it to anyone who might be interested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have found no way of terminating application mode using Jaws apart from moving focus away from the content.  the Jaws key +z is supposed to toggle from Virtual cursor mode to auto, but the Help text provided for this command explicitly indicates that this toggling functionality does not work if the application role is in effect.  Turning forms mode off with escape or the numberpad plus key has no effect either.</p>
<p>This is a great article and I will recommend it to anyone who might be interested.</p>
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		<title>Comment on If you use the WAI-ARIA role &#8220;application&#8221;, please do so wisely! by David Bailes</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/02/06/if-you-use-the-wai-aria-role-application-please-do-so-wisely/comment-page-1/#comment-282662</link>
		<dc:creator>David Bailes</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 15:22:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=319#comment-282662</guid>
		<description>If you have a group of controls which behave as though they&#039;re some sort of application, and these only take up a part of the web page, then the reasons for wanting to label that region with the role application include:
1. It lets the user know that the controls in the region form some sort of application.
2. Within this region, unmodified or shift modified letters can be used as shortcuts.
Note that both these reasons don&#039;t depend on whether the controls are native or standard sorts of controls known to screen readers.
However, given current screen reader support, there are some problems:
1. Given that you&#039;re probably tabbing around the controls in an application region, it might be helpful if the screen reader told you if you tabbed into and out of the region. However Jaws and NVDA don&#039;t do this.
(Jaws 13 tells you when you enter and leave regions such as banner and main as you read the page, and the above suggestion is just an extension of this.)
2. It&#039;s difficult to move to the part of the web page immediately after an application region. You can tab out of the region, but that&#039;s not much use. Jaws allows you to manually come out of forms mode, and then you can read to the end of the region, but depending on the controls, that could be tedious. Maybe a screen reader command could do this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you have a group of controls which behave as though they&#8217;re some sort of application, and these only take up a part of the web page, then the reasons for wanting to label that region with the role application include:<br />
1. It lets the user know that the controls in the region form some sort of application.<br />
2. Within this region, unmodified or shift modified letters can be used as shortcuts.<br />
Note that both these reasons don&#8217;t depend on whether the controls are native or standard sorts of controls known to screen readers.<br />
However, given current screen reader support, there are some problems:<br />
1. Given that you&#8217;re probably tabbing around the controls in an application region, it might be helpful if the screen reader told you if you tabbed into and out of the region. However Jaws and NVDA don&#8217;t do this.<br />
(Jaws 13 tells you when you enter and leave regions such as banner and main as you read the page, and the above suggestion is just an extension of this.)<br />
2. It&#8217;s difficult to move to the part of the web page immediately after an application region. You can tab out of the region, but that&#8217;s not much use. Jaws allows you to manually come out of forms mode, and then you can read to the end of the region, but depending on the controls, that could be tedious. Maybe a screen reader command could do this.</p>
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		<title>Comment on If you use the WAI-ARIA role &#8220;application&#8221;, please do so wisely! by steve faulkner</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/02/06/if-you-use-the-wai-aria-role-application-please-do-so-wisely/comment-page-1/#comment-282652</link>
		<dc:creator>steve faulkner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 14:20:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=319#comment-282652</guid>
		<description>Hi Marco, 
you wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Steve, Mac OS X and iOS use a completely different user interaction paradigm. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
That was my point, role=application means different things, on Mac its not a problem as it is merley a semantic indicator.
you wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;The tricky part is that there is no standard way to tell a screen reader that “this element is interactive”. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Isn&#039;t focus an indicator?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Marco,<br />
you wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Steve, Mac OS X and iOS use a completely different user interaction paradigm. </p></blockquote>
<p>That was my point, role=application means different things, on Mac its not a problem as it is merley a semantic indicator.<br />
you wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>The tricky part is that there is no standard way to tell a screen reader that “this element is interactive”. </p></blockquote>
<p>Isn&#8217;t focus an indicator?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on If you use the WAI-ARIA role &#8220;application&#8221;, please do so wisely! by Marco</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/02/06/if-you-use-the-wai-aria-role-application-please-do-so-wisely/comment-page-1/#comment-282651</link>
		<dc:creator>Marco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 14:20:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=319#comment-282651</guid>
		<description>Jonathan, not sure what you&#039;re referring to here. Thunderbird is not a web application, but a regular desktop e-mail client.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jonathan, not sure what you&#8217;re referring to here. Thunderbird is not a web application, but a regular desktop e-mail client.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on If you use the WAI-ARIA role &#8220;application&#8221;, please do so wisely! by Jonathan</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/02/06/if-you-use-the-wai-aria-role-application-please-do-so-wisely/comment-page-1/#comment-282646</link>
		<dc:creator>Jonathan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 13:40:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=319#comment-282646</guid>
		<description>Is there some long-standing accessibility bug regarding this? I can not count how many times I remember that in Thunderbird&#039;s Inbox.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Is there some long-standing accessibility bug regarding this? I can not count how many times I remember that in Thunderbird&#8217;s Inbox.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on If you use the WAI-ARIA role &#8220;application&#8221;, please do so wisely! by Marco</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/02/06/if-you-use-the-wai-aria-role-application-please-do-so-wisely/comment-page-1/#comment-282635</link>
		<dc:creator>Marco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 12:28:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=319#comment-282635</guid>
		<description>Steve, Mac OS X and iOS use a completely different user interaction paradigm. There is no virtual cursor in either of those operating systems, you interact with VoiceOver commands/gestures, and if you need to input something and focus an element, you just start typing. The only exception is if quick navigation is enabled by pressing left and right arrow keys simultaneously. This causes all keyboard input to be captured even when the focus is in a text field or the like. For them, there is not really a difference in interacting with a web page and objects in other applications. On iOS, for example, you can navigate to headings in the list of contacts in exactly the same way as you do to headings in HTML documents: You set the rotor to navigate by headings and then swipe up and down.

You then ask:
&lt;blockquote&gt;why can’t screen readers just set the appropriate interaction mode based on widget roles?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

They do, in many cases, as I point out above. In NvDA, for example, you can tab to a tree view, and NVDA will automatically switch to focus mode. The tricky part is that there is no standard way to tell a screen reader that &quot;this element is interactive&quot;. Screen readers can only whitelist roles for which they allow switching to focus mode. If we had something standard that widget authors could use, that would be extremely helpful!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Steve, Mac OS X and iOS use a completely different user interaction paradigm. There is no virtual cursor in either of those operating systems, you interact with VoiceOver commands/gestures, and if you need to input something and focus an element, you just start typing. The only exception is if quick navigation is enabled by pressing left and right arrow keys simultaneously. This causes all keyboard input to be captured even when the focus is in a text field or the like. For them, there is not really a difference in interacting with a web page and objects in other applications. On iOS, for example, you can navigate to headings in the list of contacts in exactly the same way as you do to headings in HTML documents: You set the rotor to navigate by headings and then swipe up and down.</p>
<p>You then ask:</p>
<blockquote><p>why can’t screen readers just set the appropriate interaction mode based on widget roles?</p></blockquote>
<p>They do, in many cases, as I point out above. In NvDA, for example, you can tab to a tree view, and NVDA will automatically switch to focus mode. The tricky part is that there is no standard way to tell a screen reader that &#8220;this element is interactive&#8221;. Screen readers can only whitelist roles for which they allow switching to focus mode. If we had something standard that widget authors could use, that would be extremely helpful!</p>
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		<title>Comment on If you use the WAI-ARIA role &#8220;application&#8221;, please do so wisely! by steve faulkner</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/02/06/if-you-use-the-wai-aria-role-application-please-do-so-wisely/comment-page-1/#comment-282621</link>
		<dc:creator>steve faulkner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 10:55:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=319#comment-282621</guid>
		<description>Inclusion of role=&quot;application&quot; as a landmark is a point of confusion, as is the differing affects it has across platforms. As far as I know, on Mac OSX and iOS role=&quot;application&quot; has no effect other than to indicate a region unlike Windows screen readers. This may be a dumb question, but why can&#039;t screen readers just set the appropriate interaction mode based on widget roles?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Inclusion of role=&#8221;application&#8221; as a landmark is a point of confusion, as is the differing affects it has across platforms. As far as I know, on Mac OSX and iOS role=&#8221;application&#8221; has no effect other than to indicate a region unlike Windows screen readers. This may be a dumb question, but why can&#8217;t screen readers just set the appropriate interaction mode based on widget roles?</p>
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		<title>Comment on If you use the WAI-ARIA role &#8220;application&#8221;, please do so wisely! by Jeevan Reddy</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/02/06/if-you-use-the-wai-aria-role-application-please-do-so-wisely/comment-page-1/#comment-282561</link>
		<dc:creator>Jeevan Reddy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 05:57:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=319#comment-282561</guid>
		<description>Nice article Marco!. Thank you for throwing light on the use of ARIA application role.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article Marco!. Thank you for throwing light on the use of ARIA application role.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>Comment on If you use the WAI-ARIA role &#8220;application&#8221;, please do so wisely! by Marco</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/02/06/if-you-use-the-wai-aria-role-application-please-do-so-wisely/comment-page-1/#comment-282559</link>
		<dc:creator>Marco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 05:42:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=319#comment-282559</guid>
		<description>Hi all!

First and foremost, thanks for your great comments! Here are a few points I&#039;d like to respond to.

Jamie writes:
&lt;blockquote&gt;First, it’s important to note that role=”application” does not just enable focus mode. In focus mode, you can normally hit escape or some other key to switch back to browse mode. Also, if auto focus mode switching is disabled, the screen reader won’t automatically switch to focus mode when an interactive widget gains focus. In contrast, in NVDA, if role=”application” is used, you cannot switch back to browse mode at all; as far as NVDA is concerned, this is no longer a document. As I understand it, the same is true for JAWS, though you can force enable the virtual cursor there.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Where did this paradigm that, when role &quot;application&quot; is being used, browse mode can no longer be enabled, come from? Could it not be implemented in a less strict fashion?

Jamie writes:
&lt;blockquote&gt;role=”application” should never be used unless you truly believe a given section or the entirety of what you are developing should behave like an application and not like a document.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

yes I agree that this is the main point to make! And I&#039;m considering making the above blog post even more restrictive based on your and others&#039; comments (some of which I received through other channels). But what&#039;s the guideline? How can we help web developers make that decision?

Jamie continues:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Dialog and alertdialog should already be implicitly treated as applications, so a specific application role isn’t required here either.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Right, thanks for the pointer! This is, of course, assuming that the screen reader vendor treats these roles properly.

Pratik writes about Gmail:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Other than the assistive technology user not knowing these keyboard commands, there is an additional problem of the screen reader not providing appropriate feedback. Even if the focus is visually moving from message to message with j and k, there is no audible confirmation, leaving the user completely confused.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The problem here, I think, is that they change the focus visually only. or they use elements to focus they didn&#039;t make focusable before, causing browsers not to emit focus events. These are usually what tell screen readers that the element of interaction has changed. Or a combination of both above mentioned. :)

Again: I&#039;m certainly going to update this post to incorporate some of the points mentioned in your comments, so stay tuned!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi all!</p>
<p>First and foremost, thanks for your great comments! Here are a few points I&#8217;d like to respond to.</p>
<p>Jamie writes:</p>
<blockquote><p>First, it’s important to note that role=”application” does not just enable focus mode. In focus mode, you can normally hit escape or some other key to switch back to browse mode. Also, if auto focus mode switching is disabled, the screen reader won’t automatically switch to focus mode when an interactive widget gains focus. In contrast, in NVDA, if role=”application” is used, you cannot switch back to browse mode at all; as far as NVDA is concerned, this is no longer a document. As I understand it, the same is true for JAWS, though you can force enable the virtual cursor there.</p></blockquote>
<p>Where did this paradigm that, when role &#8220;application&#8221; is being used, browse mode can no longer be enabled, come from? Could it not be implemented in a less strict fashion?</p>
<p>Jamie writes:</p>
<blockquote><p>role=”application” should never be used unless you truly believe a given section or the entirety of what you are developing should behave like an application and not like a document.</p></blockquote>
<p>yes I agree that this is the main point to make! And I&#8217;m considering making the above blog post even more restrictive based on your and others&#8217; comments (some of which I received through other channels). But what&#8217;s the guideline? How can we help web developers make that decision?</p>
<p>Jamie continues:</p>
<blockquote><p>Dialog and alertdialog should already be implicitly treated as applications, so a specific application role isn’t required here either.</p></blockquote>
<p>Right, thanks for the pointer! This is, of course, assuming that the screen reader vendor treats these roles properly.</p>
<p>Pratik writes about Gmail:</p>
<blockquote><p>Other than the assistive technology user not knowing these keyboard commands, there is an additional problem of the screen reader not providing appropriate feedback. Even if the focus is visually moving from message to message with j and k, there is no audible confirmation, leaving the user completely confused.</p></blockquote>
<p>The problem here, I think, is that they change the focus visually only. or they use elements to focus they didn&#8217;t make focusable before, causing browsers not to emit focus events. These are usually what tell screen readers that the element of interaction has changed. Or a combination of both above mentioned. <img src='http://www.marcozehe.de/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>Again: I&#8217;m certainly going to update this post to incorporate some of the points mentioned in your comments, so stay tuned!</p>
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		<title>Comment on If you use the WAI-ARIA role &#8220;application&#8221;, please do so wisely! by Pratik Patel</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/02/06/if-you-use-the-wai-aria-role-application-please-do-so-wisely/comment-page-1/#comment-282539</link>
		<dc:creator>Pratik Patel</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 04:21:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=319#comment-282539</guid>
		<description>One thing I cannot emphasize enough is that, if an area is defined as an application, the developer/designer *must* make sure that sufficient keyboard commands are made available for the user of assistive technology. In the Gmail example listed, there are several keyboard commands available. There appears to be a disconnect between those keyboard interactions and screen reader output. For example, Using J and K will allow the user to move between messages. Then use O to open the message, x to mark the message, etc. Other than the assistive technology user not knowing these keyboard commands, there is an additional problem of the screen reader not providing appropriate feedback. Even if the focus is visually moving from message to message with j and k, there is no audible confirmation, leaving the user completely confused. I know that  both Marco and James in his comment have made this point, but, when the application role is used, start thinking about how you expect the blind user to interact with your application and not just your web page. At that point, it is not the web site that the user is interacting with;it&#039;s your application.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One thing I cannot emphasize enough is that, if an area is defined as an application, the developer/designer *must* make sure that sufficient keyboard commands are made available for the user of assistive technology. In the Gmail example listed, there are several keyboard commands available. There appears to be a disconnect between those keyboard interactions and screen reader output. For example, Using J and K will allow the user to move between messages. Then use O to open the message, x to mark the message, etc. Other than the assistive technology user not knowing these keyboard commands, there is an additional problem of the screen reader not providing appropriate feedback. Even if the focus is visually moving from message to message with j and k, there is no audible confirmation, leaving the user completely confused. I know that  both Marco and James in his comment have made this point, but, when the application role is used, start thinking about how you expect the blind user to interact with your application and not just your web page. At that point, it is not the web site that the user is interacting with;it&#8217;s your application.</p>
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		<title>Comment on If you use the WAI-ARIA role &#8220;application&#8221;, please do so wisely! by Accessibility India</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/02/06/if-you-use-the-wai-aria-role-application-please-do-so-wisely/comment-page-1/#comment-282509</link>
		<dc:creator>Accessibility India</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 07 Feb 2012 02:08:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=319#comment-282509</guid>
		<description>Nice article .... Thank you for throwing light on ARIA</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice article &#8230;. Thank you for throwing light on ARIA</p>
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		<title>Comment on If you use the WAI-ARIA role &#8220;application&#8221;, please do so wisely! by James Teh</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/02/06/if-you-use-the-wai-aria-role-application-please-do-so-wisely/comment-page-1/#comment-282453</link>
		<dc:creator>James Teh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 22:56:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=319#comment-282453</guid>
		<description>Hi Marco,

Great post for the most part, though I very strongly disagree with a few points which I think could actually make this situation worse.

First, it&#039;s important to note that role=&quot;application&quot; does not just enable focus mode. In focus mode, you can normally hit escape or some other key to switch back to browse mode. Also, if auto focus mode switching is disabled, the screen reader won&#039;t automatically switch to focus mode when an interactive widget gains focus. In contrast, in NVDA, if role=&quot;application&quot; is used, you cannot switch back to browse mode at all; as far as NVDA is concerned, this is no longer a document. As I understand it, the same is true for JAWS, though you can force enable the virtual cursor there.

role=&quot;application&quot; should never be used unless you truly believe a given section or the entirety of what you are developing should behave like an application and not like a document. Tree views, sliders, interactive tables, tab controls (tab/tablist), toolbars, menus, etc. are all single compound widgets and should be handled just fine by browse mode/focus mode switching (excepting bugs in screen readers). This enables any of these widgets to be used as part of a document without breaking normal document interaction, just like the traditional widgets.

role=&quot;application&quot; is placed on the body of the Yahoo! Mail interface because the entire site has been structured to enable interaction as an application. To be honest, it is probably the only mainstream example I have ever seen where role=&quot;application&quot; is necessary and correctly used. Google Documents and Spreadsheets also do this, but the problem there is that there are too many links, etc. in the tab order before you hit the main part of the application.

Dialog and alertdialog should already be implicitly treated as applications, so a specific application role isn&#039;t required here either.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Marco,</p>
<p>Great post for the most part, though I very strongly disagree with a few points which I think could actually make this situation worse.</p>
<p>First, it&#8217;s important to note that role=&#8221;application&#8221; does not just enable focus mode. In focus mode, you can normally hit escape or some other key to switch back to browse mode. Also, if auto focus mode switching is disabled, the screen reader won&#8217;t automatically switch to focus mode when an interactive widget gains focus. In contrast, in NVDA, if role=&#8221;application&#8221; is used, you cannot switch back to browse mode at all; as far as NVDA is concerned, this is no longer a document. As I understand it, the same is true for JAWS, though you can force enable the virtual cursor there.</p>
<p>role=&#8221;application&#8221; should never be used unless you truly believe a given section or the entirety of what you are developing should behave like an application and not like a document. Tree views, sliders, interactive tables, tab controls (tab/tablist), toolbars, menus, etc. are all single compound widgets and should be handled just fine by browse mode/focus mode switching (excepting bugs in screen readers). This enables any of these widgets to be used as part of a document without breaking normal document interaction, just like the traditional widgets.</p>
<p>role=&#8221;application&#8221; is placed on the body of the Yahoo! Mail interface because the entire site has been structured to enable interaction as an application. To be honest, it is probably the only mainstream example I have ever seen where role=&#8221;application&#8221; is necessary and correctly used. Google Documents and Spreadsheets also do this, but the problem there is that there are too many links, etc. in the tab order before you hit the main part of the application.</p>
<p>Dialog and alertdialog should already be implicitly treated as applications, so a specific application role isn&#8217;t required here either.</p>
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		<title>Comment on If you use the WAI-ARIA role &#8220;application&#8221;, please do so wisely! by Janet Swisher</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/02/06/if-you-use-the-wai-aria-role-application-please-do-so-wisely/comment-page-1/#comment-282426</link>
		<dc:creator>Janet Swisher</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 21:39:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=319#comment-282426</guid>
		<description>Hi Marco,

Great article on the &#039;application&#039; role! This could be turned into documentation for that role on MDN with only slight adaptation (similar to &lt;a href=&quot;https://developer.mozilla.org/en/ARIA/ARIA_Techniques/Using_the_alert_role&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Using the alert role&lt;/a&gt;). If that&#039;s OK with you (I didn&#039;t find a copyright or licensing statement on your blog), I&#039;ll add that to the list of possible tasks for MDN contributors.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Marco,</p>
<p>Great article on the &#8216;application&#8217; role! This could be turned into documentation for that role on MDN with only slight adaptation (similar to <a href="https://developer.mozilla.org/en/ARIA/ARIA_Techniques/Using_the_alert_role" rel="nofollow">Using the alert role</a>). If that&#8217;s OK with you (I didn&#8217;t find a copyright or licensing statement on your blog), I&#8217;ll add that to the list of possible tasks for MDN contributors.</p>
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		<title>Comment on If you use the WAI-ARIA role &#8220;application&#8221;, please do so wisely! by Vincent Young</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/02/06/if-you-use-the-wai-aria-role-application-please-do-so-wisely/comment-page-1/#comment-282406</link>
		<dc:creator>Vincent Young</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 06 Feb 2012 20:01:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=319#comment-282406</guid>
		<description>Great article.  Thanks Marco.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great article.  Thanks Marco.</p>
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		<title>Comment on New in accessibility in Firefox 10 by Peter</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/01/31/new-in-accessibility-in-firefox-10/comment-page-1/#comment-281210</link>
		<dc:creator>Peter</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Feb 2012 14:38:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=316#comment-281210</guid>
		<description>Marco,
Thanks for good news. There are still tables related accessibility problems in thunderbird, e.g. multiple recipients problem. Do you have some news concerning that?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Marco,<br />
Thanks for good news. There are still tables related accessibility problems in thunderbird, e.g. multiple recipients problem. Do you have some news concerning that?</p>
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		<title>Comment on New in accessibility in Firefox 10 by Tech Access Weekly, Assistive Technology, Accessible Technology, disability, blind, visually impaired, screen reader, magnification</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/01/31/new-in-accessibility-in-firefox-10/comment-page-1/#comment-281003</link>
		<dc:creator>Tech Access Weekly, Assistive Technology, Accessible Technology, disability, blind, visually impaired, screen reader, magnification</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Feb 2012 02:31:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=316#comment-281003</guid>
		<description>[...] iPad 3 Rumors, Warner Brothers Encourages Piracy, Google Public Alerts, Firefox 10 Released and Accessibility, NVDA 2012 Release 1 Beta 1, Adobe Day at CSUN, SmartView Senergy PI by Humanware, ATIA 2012 [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] iPad 3 Rumors, Warner Brothers Encourages Piracy, Google Public Alerts, Firefox 10 Released and Accessibility, NVDA 2012 Release 1 Beta 1, Adobe Day at CSUN, SmartView Senergy PI by Humanware, ATIA 2012 [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on Accessible Firefox on Mac OS X &#8211; things are ramping up! by SeroSpectives: This Month in Tech for January, 2012 &#124; SeroTalk</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/01/17/accessible-firefox-on-mac-os-x-things-are-ramping-up/comment-page-1/#comment-280897</link>
		<dc:creator>SeroSpectives: This Month in Tech for January, 2012 &#124; SeroTalk</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2012 19:57:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=307#comment-280897</guid>
		<description>[...] Accessible Firefox on Mac OS X – things are ramping up [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Accessible Firefox on Mac OS X – things are ramping up [...]</p>
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		<title>Comment on New in accessibility in Firefox 10 by Marco</title>
		<link>http://www.marcozehe.de/2012/01/31/new-in-accessibility-in-firefox-10/comment-page-1/#comment-280763</link>
		<dc:creator>Marco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2012 08:48:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.marcozehe.de/?p=316#comment-280763</guid>
		<description>@Jonathan, yes, you have been using these features since you got the upgrade to Aurora 10. I used to post these new things in accessibility at the time of the Aurora migration, but it caused some confusion among readers since most use the release builds, not the Aurora or even Nightly channels. So I at one point started to post these updates at the time of the actual major release dates.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Jonathan, yes, you have been using these features since you got the upgrade to Aurora 10. I used to post these new things in accessibility at the time of the Aurora migration, but it caused some confusion among readers since most use the release builds, not the Aurora or even Nightly channels. So I at one point started to post these updates at the time of the actual major release dates.</p>
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